EU-Views: Magda Matache
Name: Margareta (Magda) Matache
Nationality: Romanian
Occupation(s): Instructor at FXB Center for Health and Human Rights, Harvard; Roma rights activist, Executive Director of Romani CRISS (2005-2012)
Connection to Europe: European citizen; specializes in the rights, agency, and social ecology of Romani children and adolescents, early childhood development, Romani women, anti-Roma violence, and segregation in education
Date of interview: April 15, 2016
This episode is a conversation with Magda Matache, a Roma rights activist, about the contemporary conditions facing the Roma people across Europe. Matache explains the Roma problem, and outlines the questions surrounding inclusive education in the EU. She discusses the rise of populism and the impact of extremism on minority groups in Europe.
Transcription of Interview:
OY: Olya Yordanyan
MM: Magda Matache
OY: The EU Futures Program tries to launch a conversation about the future of the European Union as it currently faces so many challenges and have undergone so many changes in recent years. It’s quite clear that the European Union will never be the same as it is now, or as it was even 5, 10 years ago. Basically we try to gather opinions from American and European experts, corollaries, and scholars, to encourage a conversation about the future emerging in the European Union. So my first question will focus on the growing issues in the European Union. Can you explain in a few words the main problems currently facing the Roma people? In 2010, there was a huge crackdown on Roma camps in France, and other countries, at the time making headlines, but the tensions seem to have subsided and calmed – so what is the situation of the Roma in the European Union today?
MM: I think that it apparently seems to be calm – I should say from the beginning there are different dynamics in the European Union, as we can all see, and sometimes Roma are the core of these European discussions and debates, but there are moments when other issues take that place. I think that is where we are now, the refugee crisis, the economic crisis in Greece, all these debates about Great Britain and Greece exiting the EU, and even the Ukraine crisis, as well as the threats of extremism and terrorism. I think these issues have become more of a priority for Europe than the Roma question. This is not to say that the situation of Roma in Europe has improved, it’s just to say that the European politicians, at the level of the EU, and politicians at the national level have changed their priorities to focus more on urgent matters than on the Roma issue. I think that we can discuss the Roma problems in at least two paradigms. One is the role of the Roma question within these big dynamics that we are seeing now, looking at the refugee crisis, or if we are to look at the freedom of movement, or at the dynamic that we have in the UK. But we can also discuss the Roma questions separately, targeting the specific problems they continue to face.
OY: Could you please break down what the Roma questions are for those in our audience who are not quite familiar with the Roma problem in the European Union?
MM: Yes, I can definitely do that. There is a concern among Roma activists and Roma scholars in Europe, that, for 25 years now, different European institutions have tried to ‘integrate’ the Roma populations if I have to use the language of these politicians. But, 25 years later, when we look at the situations in our Roma communities, not much has been changed. So basically, in relation to Roma, we do acknowledge the fact that there are more policies, there is legislation to protect the rights of Roma along with other populations in Europe. But in terms of implementation, European countries, most of the European countries, lag behind, and the rule of law doesn’t really function in relation to Roma populations. I’ll give you a few examples. For instance, segregation in education is a matter, or rather, is a violation of rights that is forbidden everywhere in Europe. And the European Union has a strong legislation to forbid segregation, the EU Race Equality Directive Space speaks for itself in that regard. So, basically, whereas we have this strong legal framework, in reality many Romani children in Central, Eastern, and South Europe continue to learn in segregated schools or segregated classes. There are several cases that were brought before the European Court of Human Rights by Roma organizations. In the Czech Republic, a famous case in 2007, DH vs. Czech Republic, showed that Roman children in the Czech Republic were placed in special schools for children with mental disabilities, or they were placed abusively in those schools. On the other hand, there are cases in Hungary, Croatia, and Greece showing other patterns of segregation. And segregation in schools, once again, can take different forms. We meet children who are segregated in a classroom, and that classroom gets lower quality of education, worse infrastructure, and worse performance results at the end of the day. There are Romani children who are placed in separate buildings, or separate schools, and, again, the quality of education is very bad. And, on top of that, we have Romani children who are placed in all of these special schools. So, that’s only one of the aspects of violation of rights that everyone in Europe are entitled to, but, when it comes to Roma, these are not actually implemented. And we don’t only speak of segregation in education, but there are many cases and many instances when Roma are discriminated against in employment, in accessing healthcare, in accessing housing rights, not to mention police abuses. These at Roma problems that happen in many countries in Europe. I think forced expulsions are also a problem—and we had many cases in France and Italy—and on top of that hate speech and hate crimes became a reality in many European Union countries, but that’s probably a matter that we can discuss not only in relation to Roma, but also in relation to refugees and immigrant populations today.
OY: Could you continue on your first idea about discussing the Roma question at several levels?
MM: Yes, so, I said that we can either target Roma and separately discuss various problems and solutions, or we can also look at Roma in relation to other groups and other problems that we have in Europe. And I think we have one common topic that we can discuss at least in this new context of the European Union which is the issue of inclusive education. And that speaks for the Roma, but also for the immigrant children, and for the refugee populations that are currently settling in Europe. Inclusive education is really an issue that continues to be a challenge for the European Union and for the Member States of the European Union. For instance, there is a PISA Report from 2012 that shows how in many countries across the European Union, young people—age 15—who come from poor families are behind those who come from rich families, with at least 2-3 years of education. And in countries like Belgium, I think, it is move than 3 years, and that’s a problem that we have not only in relation to Roma, but once again its more in relation to the first generation of immigrants that are in Europe. On top of that, there is a report from 2015 that shows how in different countries, such as France and Belgium, again, many children—around 50-60% of children—from minority groups don’t feel welcome in school. I think that’s a problem, and that speaks to a variety of groups, but from my experience working with Roma children in many European countries, I can say that that’s also a reality for Roma children. So, along with the urgent matters and the urgent measures that the European Union has to work on in the near future, one important aspect of dealing with the increasingly diverse population in Europe, is to tackle inclusive education and to make sure that every child benefits from intercultural education, from human rights education, and children who belong to a minority group feel welcome and have equal opportunities as the other students have in their city. And I think that’s probably one of the solutions we can think of when we discuss the future of Europe, the future of the European Union. Even though we often times say that education is important and that we should focus our resources on educating minority children, Romani children, and so on, I think this time around we really have to think more about solutions and how to provide inclusive education and intercultural education for all children in the European Union.
OY: How do you see the future of integration evolving, given all the challenges that Roma people currently face? And, as far as I understand, Brussels officials are facing challenges too, so how do you see Roma integration in the context of changing integration within the European Union?
MM: So I think that in the last 25 years, different governments—recently the European Union—have tried to suggest several policies and several measures that would support the Roma and improve the integration of the Roma into European society. In my opinion, this was not the path to go because very often, if we are to analyze these policy measures, we focused on Roman enrollment to primary education, we focused on providing Roma with awareness raising campaigns about their health, but very rarely we focused on the inclusion of the Roma. In order to include Roma in European societies I think that there is a change that needs to be produced at the societal level where the Roma live, and also at the level of political discourse. Up to now we have had more of a top down approach, more of a powerful to powerless approach, in which the dominant population, or the dominant politicians, told the Roma what we to do. I believe that this approach was wrong, was wrong for the Roma, but also wrong for other populations in other regions of the world. Now I think that a wave of Romani scholars and Romani activists is emerging, and that wave is producing a more critical approach toward the integration policies that were out there for Roma. So far I believe that this new wave is us seeing and demanding increased Roma participation in policy design, in research design, and implementation of initiatives at different local and national levels. And think that is very important. Also, in order to ensure better integration or to ensure the ‘inclusion’ of Roma, to use a term that I think is more accurate for this subject, we also need a change in the way that politicians think about the Roma, about ‘inclusion’. To give you just one example, there are two important strategies at the European Union for Roma. One is the framework for national strategies for Roma inclusion, and the other one is the 2020 strategy. If we look again at education, because this is one of the subjects that really interests me, in relation to Roma, there is a huge interest to enroll all Romani children to primary education, and there is an interest to encourage Roma to enroll to high schools and universities. I believe that the language itself speaks about the expectations that we have from Romani children, as we want them to go to primary education, but we just encourage the Roma to access higher education. There is a whole discussion on the question of whether it is enough to enroll Roma to primary education, because we have cases like Hungary and the Czech Republic where 99% of Roma children enroll to first grade, and then, because of segregation, discrimination, stigma, and prejudice, only 10% make it to high school and less than 2% succeed to enroll in universities. So, it’s not a matter of encouraging Roma, but it is a matter of how we change the realities and the practices in schools in order to get them access higher education. But, if we look to the 2020 strategy, there is a very clear objective there to increase the number of young people who go to university from 35%, I think, to 40%. There we have benchmarks, we have indicators, and that clear goal should translate into concrete activities. I think it is just a matter of the biases, the prejudices, that we have the highest level in the European Union, but this also shows the lack of participation of Roma scholars and Roma activists in designing these policies. And I’m not talking only about the targeted Roma policies, but I am also speaking about the 2020 strategy, because if Roma were involved in that process, their needs would also be reflected in that mainstream policy.
OY: You talked about changing the attitudes, so, beyond these policies, what is the European Union doing in practice to get these attitudes to change, and what has been done so far? And, coming from that, do you believe that there is there a chance that the European feeling can be successful in pursuing more inclusive policies toward the Roma in the future? Considering what has been done, what we have now, and looking ahead.
MM: No, I think that the European framework for national strategies for Roma inclusion is a positive step forward. That is not just a European document, it also asks European Member States to come up with national strategies, and to implement local and national level measures that would support the inclusion of Roma. So, from each side, European Union institutions are trying their best to support this, but the Roma is a very specific group in Europe. Given the fact that on one hand they are citizens of their own states, but on the other hand they are also perceived as a European minority, that creates a debate between European institutions and the national states because the European Union bodies would always ask the national governments to take measures and make sure that Roma are included in policies, and measures, and so on. However, often times, the Member States would ask the European Union to actually handle the Roma issue, as they say “they’re a European minority, that’s not a minority that belongs only to one country,” and there is a, you know, a blame game out there. But, at the end of the day, I agree with the European Union institutions that there is a responsibility, and there should be accountability of governments to make sure that the rights of Roma are respected in different countries. I think that there is a solution and I think that the European Union institutions can contribute to promoting, and to implementing, more intercultural education in different schools all over Europe. And I think that there is space for cooperation and coordination among Member States but also among ministries of education from different countries. It’s just a matter of political will and of realizing how important inclusive education is for minority children, but also for majority children. It is not enough to have awareness raising campaigns, as we had up to now, and to show a video about inclusion of a group or another. All these campaigns are interesting, are beautiful, but they don’t change mentality. In order to change mentality, we really need intercultural education in schools—and that can happen. There are different recommendations from different institutions coming from the European Union but also from the Consul of Europe that should be implemented by Ministries of Education. I think that the problem that we have now is that many politicians don’t realize the importance of these measures.
OY: What’s your vision of the future of the European Union? What would like to see happen in the European Union in relation to the Roma question?
MM: So I think that Europe is never the same. There are dynamics, there are processes, and there are challenges that the European Union is exposed to, and it’s a matter of its leadership, but also its populations, to find solutions. I do believe that the European Union should respect its founding values, and we just can’t forget that human rights, human dignity, rule of law, democracy, are values that the European Union was set up on. This should never be negotiated with anyone for any reason. If we continue to value those things, and to implement them in day to day life, then I think Europe will have a good future. But, given the level of extremism, the level of populism that we see is increasing in many European countries, I am a little bit less optimistic and I do believe that to stop extremism and to stop violence against minority populations and religious groups I think we definitely need to have a strong voice coming from the European Union leadership. Going against such discourse and actions, we need sanctions from different courts at the national level, we need protection of minority groups who feel discriminated against, and who feel fear on day to day basis.
OY: Do you think this rise in nationalist and populist statements that politicians are making all over Europe are specifically directed to Roma people? Or are they just directed against all minority groups?
MM: I think it depends a lot on the moment in history. A few years ago, in 2009 in 2010, those discourses and actions were targeting Roma more than other groups. This year we noticed a shift in relation and reaction to the refugee populations entering Europe. And I believe that if we are to compare 2007, 2009, and 2012, many Roma young people, women, children, were either killed, expelled from their villages, or were exposed to violence. In Hungary, for instance, we really had to deal with this matter, but now we can see that this wave of violence or similar methods are used in relation to refugees or toward Muslim populations. For example, in Romania two weeks ago, two Muslim women were beaten on the street just because they were Muslims. I think we really need to accept that Europe, in principle, has a lot of violence, but in reality violence and discrimination are issues that we should be concerned about; however we should not forget that rejection, prejudice, and bias can always lead to discrimination and violence. And it is our role, on one hand, to suppress biases and prejudices, but on the other hand to make sure that it doesn’t move into the other side of violence, because it is something we have seen before and we continue to see in Europe.
OY: Is there anything I didn’t ask you that you would like to talk about?
MM: I would just add that nowadays European Union institutions focus a lot on the matters that they consider urgent, that they consider priorities, but I do believe that there are departments and there are offices within these institutions that can continue working on Roma inclusion and should not wait for another crisis in order to make this subject a priority.
OY: Thank you so much.
MM: Thank you.