MELVIN M. TUMIN
551
pain ting have, compa red
to
the con stant pouring o ut of edi tori a l
ma tter, and phony sto ri es in newspapers and on televi sion ?
T umin:
T hen wh y a re the Bo lshev iks o f today so worried about the ir
art?
R osenberg:
You mean in Ru ss ia?
Tumin:
In Ru ssia and Eas tern Eu rop e.
R osenberg:
There's no thin g mo re upseuing to a society than th e loss
o f pres ti ge of its accepted forms. T h e Ru ss ians are perfectl y righ t
about thi s. You ' ll find a d iscuss ion o f tha t in one of my books- a n
ana lys is of why Kru schev was so u pset when a bstract art ists showed
up.
T umin:
Wh y shoul d he be upset if art is so inconsequenti a l?
R osenberg:
T here seems to be a contradicti on there. But in Russ ia- a
ti ght society, as opposed , say, to democrati c countri es where art is in
competiti on with the med ia, and the medi a are a ll say ing different
things, and there is a genera l melange, so tha t no thing is very
au thoritative-in Russia the no ti on tha t in some fi eld freedom
shoul d reign , tha t is, Lh a t indi vidu a ls sho uld begin to makc sta te–
ments, visua l sta tements whi ch don ' t concu r with wha t has been
accep ted as augu st and no bl e in a rt could be extremely u pscuin g.
Va lery o nce sa id tha t one of the bigges t cultura l revo lutio ns th a t ever
took p lace was pa intin g the nude.
If
people are used to seein g th e
human body in cos tume, and you suddenl y take
0 ((
the cos tume, it's
a d isas ter. T he stra in s go a ll th rough society, and n o t for sexua l
reasons eith er, but because the customa ry appearance of thin gs has
been disrup ted.
T umin:
So it's no t th e q ues tion o f wha t pa rticul a rl y is a id, but the
fac t that someone is speaking freely, ra ther than speakin g in acco r–
dance w ith the accep ted formula.
R osenberg:
Exactl y. T he Commun is ts a lways in sisted th a t abstract a rt
has no content, that it is p urely subjecti ve. Kru schev, I think , used
the term mas tu rba ti on. Well , he wouldn 't get sore if peop le sa t
aro und mas tu rba ting in p ri va te. But wha t if hundreds of peop lc
came o ut and began mas turba ting in Red Square? T he government
would o bj ect-you 're no t supposed to do tha t. T hi s is the kind o f
thin g th at would become an in d ividua l sta tement, whi ch is intoler–
able.
Tumin:
Are you willin g to say somethin g abo ut the socia l and
politi cal context tha t is mos t supportive of good an , a ll o ther thin gs
being eq ua l? T ha t is, wha t are the politi ca l and socia l cond ition s
under whi ch art as an enterp ri se can fl o uri sh the mos t?
R osenberg:
Yo u mean. are there some societi es tha t are bell er for a rt
