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different ideas, different systems, and all that; that it is no longer
a case of reuniting them. Do you think this is true?
Estier:
No. Sure, after the war families were brutally separated, and
people were forced to conform, and the new generations don't
remember. According to this view-I would call it senti–
mental-they don't know their relatives who grew up on the other
side, in the middle of Berlin. But there is nevertheless a German
community, I believe, that will never disappear. They are people
with a common culture, a common language, who want to talk to
each other, even though the two countries have taken completely
different directions. Although when one goes from West Berlin to
East Berlin, one has the impression, in some sense, of displace–
ment, of entering a completely different world, there is a bridge
that remains. But all of Europe is in an extremely difficult
position as regards the East-West dialogue. Still, I think, without
deluding myself, that there may be a situation created by
Andropov's policy changes that could be exploited.
Kurzweil:
Are you talking about Afghanistan?
Estier:
Yes.
Kurzweil:
Are you implying that Afghanistan is an isolated event?
Estier:
No, but I don't think that there would be one Afghanistan
after another because today the problem is in Afghanistan itself.
The Soviet Union is trying to find a solution that will not be
satisfying to the West, because it is not just going to pull out. But
it may try to find a less scandalous solution. Thus, this may be the
right moment for those in the West to 'exploit the situation.
Afghanistan costs the Soviet Union dearly, financially and
politically: the invasion of Afghanistan has greatly tarnished the
image of the Soviet Union in a large part of the Third World.
Kurzweil:
Yes, but are they not closer to the oil resources?
Estier:
Yes, but it's not necessarily in this way that one should go
about getting closer to the oil.
Kurzweil:
True .
Estier:
Afghanistan is a real problem for the Soviet Union, a hornet's
nest. I'm not saying that there is much we can do. But the West
can try to take some advantage of its opportunities. International
relations don't change perceptibly except when one of the
countries is in difficulty and the other exploits the difficulty. And
this is why-to return to your previous question-we in France
are a bit discouraged by President Reagan's behavior, by the fact
