MELVIN M. TUMIN
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th a t arti sts fo und fo r reaClin g aga in st Abstract Express ioni sm . On e
of th e ba sic reaso ns. it seems to me, was that Abstract Expressioni st
art implied th a t th e a rti st wa s in a contino us sta te o f stri\·in g. o f
a tt empting to a rrive a t some kind o f vi sion , a nd thi s is \Try uncom–
fo rtabl e. Befo re J ohn s ever a ppea red o n th e scen e [ hea rd express io n s
o f a ntagoni sm on th e pa rt of youn g a rti sts towa rd . fo r example. the
angst
o f Bill de Kooning. Th ey sa id, [ don ' t wa nt to sp end th e res t o f
m )' life struggling with a rt. You kn ow. Bill had sa id th at if h e could .
he' d spend the res t o f hi s life p a intin g o ne piCllll'e, ha \'in g in min d
the Ba lzac sto ry o f "Th e Unknown Mas tCT pi ece." in whi ch th e a rti st
sp end s hi s life stru gg lin g to rea lize a sing le pi c-tlll'e. Th e youn g
arti sts didn ' t want tha t. They wanted to haw a ca ree r as a rti sts and
p a int pi ctures and sell them.
T umin:
Are yo u ca lling th em a rti sts by court esy?
R osen berg:
No. I think they were expressing wh a t arc gen era ll y
rega rded as th e no rma l des ires o f arti sts. There was somethin g
ex treme a bo ut th e Abstract Express ioni sts . The\' seemcd
to
lead
extreme li ves, like J ackson Po ll ock. or Franz Kline. or Ro thko.
Somebod y h as been ma king the point con sta ntl y in the las t twent y
yea rs that these a rtists tended to di e young, des pite the fact tha t de
Kooning is now seventy-fo ur, and Ha n s Ho fmann di ed a t eight y-six.
Still there are man y exampl es. Th ere's Kline, there's Tomlin.
Th ere's Ro thko who committ ed sui cide; th ere's J ackson Po ll ock
kill ed in an a utomo bil e accident ; th ere's Go rk y committing sui cide,
even though h e wasn ' t exactly a n Abstract Express ioni st. But th e
idea is th a t thi s was dan gero u s a n . And the fact is th at thi s ",as
dan gerou s a n , tha t is. the arti sts were in vo lved in an a tt empt to
ch ange something bas ic in th eir lives.
T umin:
Are you say in g th at thi s is dan gerou s a rt . ra ther tha n a rt bein g
dan gerou s? Or would you a rgue th a t a rt
per se
is da ngerous?
R osen berg:
You can do wh a tever you want with art. Yo u ca n turn it
into a commonpl ace cra ft. You can turn it into a way o f fl attering th e
ri ch , as in the g rea t days o f po rtra iture. Yo u can p a int peop le's
ho u ses and their es ta tes and ma ke them look bea utiful.
T umin:
But now it seem s to me you ' re gellin g bac k to an a bso lut ely
minimali st definiti on o f art , on e whi ch ma kes it wh o ll y indi scr im i–
n a te in terms o f wha t it commands, in terms o f a n y specia l qua liti es.
Becau se if it's a something, whi ch we h ave ye t to say wha t it is, whi ch
lends itself so well to so ma n y purposes, wh a t is th e " it?"
R osen berg:
Yo u can ' t say tha t th ere is th e it.
T umin:
You sa id art can lend itself to pa inting houses.
