524
PARTISAN REVIEW
Tumin:
He treats himself as o bj ect, as well as the ex tern al worl d?
Rosenberg:
Well no . Sti ck to the quo ta ti on .
Tumin:
It
says,
" It
is th e crea ti on o f an evoca ti ve magic by the arti st. "
Rosenberg:
T ha t's right.
T umin:
"Containing bo th the obj ect and the subj ect, th e worl d
ex tern al to the a rti st and th e a rti st himself. "
R osenberg:
Tha t's ri ght. So the wo rk conta ins bo th the extern a l wo rld
and the arti st himse lf.
T umin:
T ha t's obviously no t a suffi cient definiti o n of a work o f a rt.
R osenberg:
It's no t a suffi cient definiti on or a defini tio n a t all. It 's a
cond iti on for an acceptable wo rk of art.
It
could be, you mi ght say,
the definiti on o f a perfect wor k of a rt. Yo u could rega rd thi s magic as
to tall y una ttain able, tha t is, in the Hegeli an sense of the subj ect o f
the object. But I agree with Baudela ire tha t the necessa ry aim o f a rt is
to a ttemp t to see th e extern al world and fo rmul a te the subj ecti ve
experi ence of the artist a t th e same time. Thi s is a very important
emphas is in a rt today because of the hi story of a rt in Ameri ca in th e
las t fifteen years. There's been a very grea t thrust towa rd one fo rm or
another of o bj ecti vity, tha t is, the a ttempt to eliminate the feelings or
subjecti ve impact of the a rti st. T he arti st has tri ed to present himself
as much as he could as a fi gu re tha t you might find in technology or
in science. The rela ti onshi p between techno logy and a rt h as en –
couraged the kind o f arti st who regards himself as a kind of
techni cian or maker of art.
T umin:
Wh y was tha t imp ul se so strong? Wha t was it a reaction
aga in st? Was it a reacti on aga in st a previous kind o f subj ecti vism?
R osen berg:
In
terms o f sta tements th a t were made, it was a reactio n
aga in st Abstract Expressioni sm-a series o f reacti ons. Among the
fi rs t were arti sts such as Jasper Johns, who sa id, " I don 't want to
exp ress myself on the canvas, and I'm not trying to evoke on the
can vas a mysteri ou s sign. I'm p repared to pa int thin gs that every–
body knows. " Or, as he put it,
"a lready
knows." And then he
produced hi s paintin gs of the Ameri can fl ag, and targets, and o f
numbers, and of letters of the alphabet, saying, " Here is something
tha t has nothing to do with me. I didn 't invent the Ameri can fl ag
and I didn 't in vent th e numbers."
T umin:
You 're being very lucidl y descripti ve o f wha t he does. But I'm
trying to press you to say wh y you think he reacts tha t way aga in st
Abstract Express ioni sm. Wha t is it tha t's unsa ti sfactory about Ab–
stract Exp ressioni sm?
R osenberg:
Now, that's a bi g subj ect. There are man y different reason s
