Melvin M. Tumin
WHAT IS ART?
AN INTERVIEW WITH
HAROLD ROSENBERG
This inlerview by Melvin Tumin with Haro ld R osenberg was (om–
pleled a few monlhs before Haro ld R osenberg's dealh in
Aug'.,
1978.
T umin:
You 've writlen so much abo ut a rt that I think if I sta rt you on
your most recent work, we may pick up the main issues ri ght from
th e beginning. So I want to turn to your articl e on J asper j ohns in
th e las t issue of
Th e New Yorker
(Deccmber 26, 1977 ). You start wi th
a quo te from Baudela ire, who says, " Wh at is pure a rt accordin g to
the mod ern idea?
It
is th e creation of an evoca tive mag ic, conta ining
a t once the object and th e subj cct, th c world external to th e a rti st and
thc arti st himself. " I take it you quo te that approvingl y?
R osenberg:
I do, especia ll y in regard to j aspe r j ohns. The problem
was John s' a ffirma tion o f the idea of a work of art whi ch would in '
no way include th e personality or th e temperament or an y o th er
individu a l aspect of th e a rti st. That is, he was spea kin g of a
completely object ive or impersona l art. This is a basic misapprehen–
sion . So the quotation from Baudel a ire which stresses th e dua l
aspects o f a work of art, so as to refl cct both the personality of th e
a rti st and th e o bj ectivc world. sccmcd appropri a te.
T umin:
That comes as close
to
your say in g what a work o f a rt is as ['\,e
ever heard you say.
R osenberg:
It doesn ' t say what a work of art is.
Tumin:
Well, Baudela ire as ks, " What is pure a rt ?"
R osenberg:
Well , th a t doesn 't intercst me. I'm no t interes ted in pure
art. T here is no such thin g.
If
Baudela ire wanted to use the tcrm,
tha t's a ll right with me. I think he meant, What are the require–
ments in the psychological or, if you wish. the spiritual sense, of a
work of art? Or th e metaph ys ica l sense? The arti st, in sofar as he
creates a valid work o f a rt, has a mag ica l apprehensi on of bo th the
objective cxtern a l world and of himself.
T umin:
He has a magi cal apprehension of himself, as well as of th e
world?
Rosenberg:
Of both. At th c same time.
