JAMES T. VALLIERE
DE KOONING:
No, not much conversation. He didn't like to talk. I re–
member that Mercedes Matter once told me a story of how Pollock
and her husband Herbert met when Lee and Jackson had them to
dinner. Jackson and Herbert spoke a little to each other upstairs and
when they came down they just sat for the rest of the night. Not a
word was said. When they left, Jackson told Lee that Herbert was a
"nice man, a nice fellow." Mercedes said Herbert said the same thing
about Jackson. They were each taken with the other-they had a
nice feeling between them. They didn't have to talk.
VALLIERE:
What about the Club? Was Pollock involved in that?
DE KOONING:
No. That started after Pollock had moved out to East
Hampton. He was very suspicious of it.
VALLIERE:
Why was he suspicious of it?
DE KOONING:
The Club was always misunderstood. We always wanted
not exactly to start a club but to have a loft and for years I had it
in mind. The Greeks and Italians each have their own social clubs
along Eighth Avenue. We didn't want to have anything to do with
art. We just wanted to get a loft, instead of sitting in those god–
damned cafeterias. One night we decided to do it - we got up twenty
charter members who each gave ten dollars and found a place on
Eighth Street. We would go there at night, have coffee, a few drinks,
chew the rag. We tried but couldn't get a name so we called it the
Club.
VALLIERE:
Pollock didn't like that.
DE KOONING:
He was suspicious of any intellectual talk. He couldn't do
it - at least not while he was sober. But he was smart though - oh
boy - because when he was half-loaded, that in-between period, he
was good, very good, very provocative. But he had contempt for people
who talked - people who taught.
VALLIERE:
But don't you think that might have been part of his belief
that art could not be taught and only phonies tried?
DE KOONING:
Maybe. He never taught, although many of
~s
had to,
and he felt superior about that. He felt that he was a very important
artist and that most of us weren't so hot.
VALLIERE:
He tried to make it known that he was
the
painter?
DE KOONING:
Oh yes. He was
it.
A couple of times he told me, "You
know more, but I feel more." I was jealous of him - his talent. But
he was a remarkable person. He'd do things that were so terrific.
After a while we only used the Club on Friday and Saturday
nights. The rest of the time we'd all go to the Cedar Bar as we were
drinking more then. So when Pollock was in town he'd come to the
