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Harry Stein:
And my own skills, and the support of my board. It's possi–
ble. It's not a desert out there, though it looks like one. As we know, there
is no American educational system, and no state systems. They're just
words at the state level. They're counteracted by local politicians who
refuse to let states validate what's going on. I think we can get better
guidelines outside charter movements.
Chester Finn:
Well, yes and no. I go to many schools, and occasionally you
see wonderful things. But the question is, what would cause these wonder–
ful
things to go on in more places? There are about 110,000 schools
in
this
country. Let's stipulate that five or ten thousand of them are doing wonder–
ful
things. That leaves us with a mere ninety thousand to worry about. What
will induce change
in
the ninety thousand that are not doing good things
today? Following your recipe, we would have to presume that they would
change
if
only they were presented with examples that would enable them
to visualize change, that the will, the power, the desire, the impulse, the
autonomy are there, and the smarts are there. They would change
if
only
they were informed about what better might look like. Would that this were
true. I don't have high hopes for bad schools. I don't believe that their lead–
ership, their savvy, their freedom, their capacity to change are great enough
that mere information will induce change. It will on the margin, sure. But
if
you want to change ninety thousand schools, or whatever number you want
to pick, that won't do the trick. I think they need to be shoved, either by the
marketplace or by a higher authority. That's why I think that state standards
and state accountability systems actually make a difference. This is most evi–
dent today in Texas, with the nation's most draconian top-down
accountability system: there, state standards and tests are actually causing
scores to rise. I don't
think
that would be happening otherwise.
Victor Kestenbaum:
I'm in the department of philosophy and in the
school of education. Some of your generalizations regarding John Dewey
seem to me to be odd, and simply contrary to what one would take to be
a responsible interpretation of Dewey. For example, do you know of any–
one in American intellectual thought, in American intellectual history,
who did more to try to advance the cause of reason? The way in which
you dismiss Dewey is unacceptable. Now, I understand that this is not a
conference on American philosophy. But I'm interested in, for example,
how to make sense of, let's say, Bill Arrowsmith. Hardly a romantic natu–
ralist; saying what matters is the integration of significant life and
knowledge, of compassionate study and informed conduct. That sounds
very much like Dewey. Sidney Hook was not a romantic naturalist; he was
a naturalist in criticizing Allen Bloom's book,
The Closing
of
the American
