WRITERS IN EXILE
17
political life have been built upon a lawful foundation.
WILLIAM PHILLIPS: I gather from most of the dissidents that no–
body believes in Communism in the Soviet Union . Are there any
dissidents or people within the Soviet Union and the satellite coun–
tries who believe in democratic socialism as distinguished from Com–
munism? Or do they all tend to believe that the only viable alterna–
tive to totalitarian Communism is some kind of Western democratic
capitalist regime?
BORIS SHRAGIN: In official propaganda one of the main ideas
has been that Communism is the only real form of socialism. This
idea runs very deep in the Soviet consciousness, and this is why dis–
sidents - as well as nondissidents - identify Communism and social–
ism as similar. It is interesting and rather sad that our emigres in
New York are very scared, for instance, of becoming members of
American trade unions, because they believe that any labor move–
ment is connected with Communists . Some politically better edu–
cated people in the Soviet Union know that in Russia there were not
only Communist Bolsheviks, but also Mensheviks, who were social
democrats and had no inclination toward violence. Some present
forms of economic and social life will be continued in the future, and
that is why a socialist democratic tendency has its reason and roots
in the current situation in the Soviet Union.
WILLIAM PHILLIPS: Do any of the dissidents believe that there is
anything in Marx or Lenin worth preserving?
PAVEL LITVINOV: An important confusion exists. Basically there
are two things in today's world - democracy and totalitarianism. But
the more we use words like "social democracy" and "democratic social–
ism" - some Americans use the expression "industrial democracy"–
the more confused I become . With democracy, things can change
slowly or quickly . Democratic capitalism has existed always in
America, though it's been different in the nineteenth and the twen–
tieth centuries. Starting in the 1920s and 1930s from the time of
Roosevelt, America went in a kind of socialist direction - in develop–
ments like welfare , employment , social security. Today, some at–
tempts are being made to return to a certain "bureaucratism" with–
out necessarily destroying the so-called safety net for all people.
We can imagine what would happen in the Soviet Union if the
government's grasp on economic power were loosened. Let's imagine
a democratic Russia in the future : if people tried to vote on issues
relating to a free market economy or some kind of mixed economy,
