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ALLEN GINSBE'RG
precisely, I think, he was just being generous and extraordinarily so–
ciable, and Prospero-like, taking some of the burden_
Int:
I know how important Buddhism is in connection with your own
work and Kerouac's, but is there any connection to Burroughs's?
Ginsberg:
There is often an emphasis on open blue space like nirvana or
transcendence, of conceptual mind prison ... especially in his recent
work, the idea of empty space in every direction which is very similar
to the Buddhist view of
Suny atli,
oddly enough. "Out of the body
experience," or "escape from the frightened, nagging, aging flesh"-–
that's Burroughs's phrase- -is like the Buddhist view of release or
moksha,
liberation from impermanence , from metamorphosis into an
unconditioned beginningless and endless suchness, nirvana- -But Bill
wouldn't go for nirvana, as it were, he would see that as a con. But
nonetheless what he seems to be after recently, and I think it was
implicit all along, is another modality or plane of consciousness where
view is unconditioned. The images in all of the books following
Nak ed
Lunch,
like "the blue tide" that comes in on yage, or the idea of "rub
out the word," "all out of the body and into space," as at the end of
the
Yage Letters,
indicate a place that is very similar to the infinite
spaciousness of Tibetan Buddhism_
Int:
Still isn't this search, no matter what its end, conducted along a
corridor of brutal self-immolation and explosions of pain?
Ginsberg:
In one view that pain is part of the "apparent thought, feeling,
and sensory phenomena," but Burroughs's late theory is that there's a
squeeze on the body by a virus coming from Venus to make it as
painful a place as possible, purposely contracting everybody into lim–
ited space, so Burroughs's remedy is unlimited space.
Solomon:
Did Burroughs and Genet have conversations when they met
in Chicago?
Ginsberg:
Yes, a lot of conversation, I was with them. They loved each
other and cared for each other, Bill talked a lot and
Gen~
listened and
laughed a lot, and told me Burroughs was very sweet and tender.
Solomon:
We once characterized Burroughs as the American Genet.
Ginsberg:
Genet told me he had read Burroughs in French, and that he
liked his work and his person, and they went around in taxicabs
together and marched together in tear-gas situations.
Solomon:
What happened then, Genet escaped into the sewer or some–
thing?
Ginsberg:
No, the guards said that we had to disperse: So David Del–
linger, who was negotiating with the guards, called me up to chant
mantras to keep everything quiet which I did for about twenty
minutes in this tight situation. Then Dellinger announced that we had
