ROLF HOCHHUTH
373
makes mistakes, who goes too far, who overshoots the mark, who, for
instance, considers Hitler's chances in Russia much better than they
actually were, which was exactly what his contemporaries did at the
time. Or if you think of that central passage in the drama, Riccardo's
foolhardy decision to do away with the Pope and to make the
SS
take
the rap for the murder, in order to mobilize the world's indignation
against them. This scene, to be sure, is not intended realistically at all.
It
is
merely a vehicle for pushing theoretical thought to its extreme
limits. This is why I cannot answer your question with an unqualified
yes. But the essential concern of Riccardo, the moral impetus which
propels him, and his coming out strongly for the victims- this I find
indeed to be essentially what one should have expected of the priests
in such a situation, and what many of them, more than a thousand,
actually did.
MARX:
Would you expect this from a man who is not a Catholic?
HOCHHUTH:
It cannot be expected or demanded of anyone. One cannot
even demand it of a priest. The determination to become a martyr
is a very personal decision which not even the Pope can demand of
his priests. But this is why I laid the scene of the deportation of the
Jews in Rome, the Pope's own diocese, where the Pope was personally,
as an individual, as Eugene Pacelli, confronted with this problem
and able to make a personal decision.
MARX:
If
you can't demand martyrdom, where do you place limits on
what you can expect of a moral human being?
HOCHHUTH:
That is a very important question. You yourself said before
that I established in great detail all the diplomatic opportunities of
the Vatican toward the co-signatory of the Concordat, Hitler. Op–
portunities which would not have placed the Church in danger, but
which could nonetheless have been exploited to resist Hitler. These
should have been fully exploited: anything that within the realm of
diplomacy could have been mustered up by way of threats against
Hitler. But beyond that I would say that the Pope also had the duty
to obligate the countless Catholics in the East-in Poland, in Hungary,
for example, and also certainly the Catholics in Germany-to obligate
them not to participate in mass murder. It is inconceivable how many
people could have been saved just in Poland if the population had
been summoned by the Church to offer Jews a hiding place.
MARX:
SO
short of martyrdom or risking the lives of Catholics, you feel
that it was incumbent upon the Pope and the Church to do what they
could for the welfare of the Jews.
HOCHHUTH:
Of course.
