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There are 28 comments on Joel Tenenbaum’s Big Day in Court

  1. It is so UTTERLY ridiculous that the RIAA is allowed to ruin a few people’s lives so they can keep their grubby, greedy little people in business. They don’t care about the people they sue. They don’t even care about the ARTISTS they represent. All they want is the damn money. When people start suing grandmothers for the entirety of their retirement funds, or 12 year olds, or income-less graduate students for downloading THIRTY songs, then there is something clearly wrong going on. Not necessarily wrong, but at least inequitable. Since when do songs cost 15000 each? Are they paying for the emotional damage on part of the record labels? ???

    If they’re going to sue, then sue everybody who gets caught for the actual amount they owe.

    Any musician who sides with the RIAA is a disgrace.

  2. I really disagree with Joel Tenenbaum’s mentality here — he basically says that everyone did it, so why should he be punished for it? That’s a really weak argument. Nearly everyone speeds, but not everyone gets a speeding ticket — should those who do not have to pay because everyone else was doing it?

    Beyond this, not everyone actually illegally downloaded music. I’m Joel’s age, and I never downloaded music illegally. People who were downloading knew that it was illegal and that if you downloaded music, you risked being caught and punished. Further, the software for downloading kept being shut down because of the copyright violations — it did not take a rocket scientist to determine that continued dowloading of protected songs would lead to trouble.

    I also question Prof. Nesson’s utilization of the “fair use” doctrine to defend Joel Tenenbaum. Fair use is not statutorily recognized, and many cases of late have undermined the doctrine. Further, part of the fair use doctrine is that the use have a purpose which deserves to be protected (generally it furthers the public interest). It is not in the public interest for people to take things without paying for them — this is stealing, plain and simple.

    Joel Tenenbaum is the thief who isn’t the least bit sorry that he stole but is awfully sorry that he got caught.

  3. This ruling is a joke. Bottom line, record companies are not “losing money” from illegal file sharing. They’re losing money because they produce crappy music that people don’t want to buy. Most music that people download is not something that they would spend money on otherwise. Not to mention – to charge him 22,500 per song is ludicrous – that’s about 40,000% more than the money they would have made had he bought the songs on iTunes.

    http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

  4. Joel is certainly persistent. This tenacity makes him a demanding but dedicated and helpful TF, ordinarily well received by conscientious students. When he transitions to research support he will teach less frequently, but if the physics department is shorthanded for TFs, he is one of the ones who will probably answer our call.

    I note that this is a civil suit, not a criminal matter, and that this complaint orginally targeted downloading when he was a sophomore in high school, a long time ago. Since then, legal online distribution opportunities have been created, and constraints on peer-to-peer file sharing have been somewhat clarified. My personal opinion is that Joel should suffer “triple damages” based on current legal download rates, which would possibly be about $200 total, depending on the availability of the songs involved. Are you listening, Judge Gertner? If so, Hi, Nancy!

    It is frequently pointed out that RIAA needs a better business model, and ought to quit randomly extorting money from a tiny fraction of its customers. I have seen statistics that report that CD sales increased during the era of unrestricted peer-to-peer file sharing, and have declined ever since RIAA embarked on random extortion as a deterrent.

    Selling individual songs online for a dollar or two is the equivalent of CD pricing for whole “albums” when distribution costs are taken into account. This business model provides a significant return for the creators and distributors, but works better if people have the opportunity to hear songs once before deciding whether to purchase them.

    Commercial radio can afford per-play fees that the RIAA et al. have been satisfied with. Unfortunately there is always the threat that RIAA will next go after internet streaming by noncommercial stations – the very stations that expand the awareness of new music.

    The recording industry needs to reinvent the digital equivalent of something that betrays my age — 45 rpm singles (with a flip side), available at local record shops with listening booths. This may require built-in technology to degrade subsequent capture and transmission of digital music beyond individual-use boundaries, but that would be a good place for them to put their money, rather than paying lawyers to persecute actual or potential customers.

    Nevertheless, “listen up” students — spread recommendations about exciting new music virally and socially, then download legally for a fee. Go directly to the artists where possible. It is the right thing to do, regardless of the faults of the nasty old RIAA.

    William J. Skocpol, Professor of Physics

  5. These jury are fools. Helping the industry stick to the individuals? S*** them! They are suckers.

    Tenenbaum should appeal all the way to Supreme Court; if still lose it, declear bankruptcy!

  6. Mr. Rolbein:

    Today’s subject line in the BU Today email, “He owes $675K for downloading tunes,” is misleading. No one has gotten sued for downloading music; those who have been sued were those who uploaded/shared music for others to use. While I enjoyed the article, the message should be “do not upload music” or “do not upload ASCAP/EMI/BMI” music.

    Best,
    Brian Gold

  7. Wrong. Joel admitted on the stand that he broke the law. This is in contrast to his previous statements, which means he also committed perjury. Thus, there is no question he is guilty, the question is how much does he owe. Further, the question is not whether or not songs cost ~ $22,000 each (they clearly do not), the question is how many people downloaded these songs from Joel? Take that number and multiply is by $1 or so. That is how much Joel is responsible for. And if Joel is correct in saying “[paraphrase] everyone in my generation does this [downloads music illegally]. . . it comes naturally” then there are certainly enough people who would have downloaded the songs from him to warrant the penalty.

    Finally, watch the CCN clip in which he discusses the difference between stealing from Best Buy (for example) versus stealing off the internet. He says the only he reason he does not steal from Best Buy is because it requires planning, etc. He steals from the internet because it is (or so he thought) easy to get away with. Alas, it is not!

  8. Rulings like this are why I hate juries. It’s a great idea in concept, but in the end, a group that can’t get out of jury duty in the end usually isn’t filled with bright people.

    Simply put, a $30,000 penalty sends a message (30 songs illegally downloaded/uploaded at a cost of $1000 a song is NOT a soft punishment), but sends the message in a reasonable way. Making this guy go bankrupt by charging him a penalty that everyone knows he can’t pay (he needed his mom’s help to offer to pay $5000 for Pete’s sake) doesn’t help the music industry at all. It just gives them a PR nightmare, like their lawsuit against the mom in Minnesota for over a million dollars.

    If you want to punish violators, the music industry has the right to do that. But slamming nonthreatening people (a mom, a future professor) doesn’t do the industry any favors.

    And to be clear, the music industry is in trouble because people used to have to buy a whole CD to get the 2 or 3 actually good songs that are made by modern artists. Now, people can just buy the 3 good songs, in effect depriving the music industry of 3/4 of the revenue they usually received from selling CDs.

  9. When I began to read this article I thought that suing a college student is within itself wrong. This poor student, likely a future pillar of our scientific society, now will forever have this silly mistake hanging over his financial head. He could pay what is the equivalent of 6+ degrees or 8 years of post grad employment with the alternative of filing for bankruptcy at 25 and losing the ability to buy a home (or an ice cream) for 7-10 years. However, after finishing the article I realized that as petty as it may be to you and me, it is serious business to the industrialists that his downloading affected. Mr. Tenenbaum failed to abide by the law and stole from the music industry. He knew of the risks involved yet consciously did so anyway. He took a chance and was caught. We learn from a very young age that there are consequences to our actions and that we have to pay for our mistakes. Our society is cluttered with folks who think that he/she is above the law and this mentality has created a worldwide landfill! I believe that Tenenbaum thought that he was above the law. Clearly, he is not. The cheap becomes expensive, everyone knows that. Sadly Mr. Tenenbaum’s frugality (or need for thrill) has become extremely costly. Dude, should have just paid the 30 bucks!!! But he didn’t and now he must take responsibility for his actions. Sony, Warner Bros., Arista, and UMG are rich, no doubt, but that doesn’t give us the right to steal from them. If everyone decided to jump off the Zakim, would you? (I do however question the amount owed. Can you, in all reality, calculate how much HE as an individual cost THEM? Likely not. I mean PLEASE Mr. Judicial System, scare him and society but don’t actually hold him to it! 30 songs are not worth a lifetime.)

  10. The music industry is completely turning over. Rolling Stone reported on this in their March 2009 issue: since 2000, CD sales have dropped 49%. There has been a MASSIVE shift to digitally downloaded music, both from sources such as iTunes and Amazon and, since it is now easier than ever, from sharing networks that don’t cost a dime. The brick-and-mortar age of music will be over in the next decade.

    The RIAA, along with the Big Four of the recording industry in the US, know this trend perfectly well, and have attempted to cope with the devastating fall in whole record sales by incorporating digital music into their business models (e.g. Warner Music Group selling DRM-free music via AmazonMP3). But while they still can, they’re going to open these lawsuits (though the RIAA stopped suing individuals in late 2008- they’re going after ISPs now, who don’t seem to really care).

    I’ve downloaded music from P2P networks myself, and I really won’t try to legitimize it…it’s against copyright law by far. I just like free stuff, along with the millions of my peers that I share with. As long as I have a way to do it, I’m going to go right ahead. It’s easier than ever to make and distribute music, especially independently. If I like a band’s music enough, I’ll go to their shows or buy their merchandise. The bloated, top-heavy music industry of the past 50 years is on its last legs.

  11. The reason Mr. Tenenbaum’s offer was rebuffed by the recording company is because he continued to download songs while trying to negotiate a settlement. Also, the fair use defense, in this case, was grasping at straws, for which he had no chance of winning.

    The RIAA knows they will never see a dime of the judgement. So, now that Mr. Tenenbaum has had his day in court, albeit an expensive one, he should now seek a bankruptcy lawyer and get on with his life.

  12. Just wanted to point out that Napster is indeed a pay service now, and I happen to use it legally.

    Also, Boston University is NOTORIOUS for:

    1) Telling their freshman downloading stuff is wrong during orientation and,

    2) Illegally downloading material (according to the freep a few years ago).

    Obviously, him being forced to pay this large sum of money will be used by the school to further scare BU students from doing this sort of thing,

    Peace.

  13. The record company is making millions of dollars for each CD/song they produce. Why the hell are they going to prosecute a college student for sharing songs? Is their reason because they are “losing revenue”? Not to mention, artists aren’t even the ones getting the money from the lawsuit, but is going to the record company.

    So the college student now has to pay $675,000 because he uploaded and shared 30 songs online. I agree his arguments were weak, but come on. Anyone else see the picture here? I want to know why the hell the punishment is that big, or rather even have that punishment. It’s as ridiculous as someone recording their cat meow, posting it online, making millions of it, and then having the store that sold him the cat to sue them because they didn’t share the profit? What the courts have to do is distinguish between what is reasonable in perspective to all the parties. A college student is paying for college against a record company that makes millions, even billions even today with all this file sharing. Seriously.

  14. Why are record companies suing downloaders? Simply because they are trying to recoup money lost due to their own stupidity eg. Mariah Carey’s label gives her $20,000,000 up front for her “Glitter” cd. It sells 50,000 copies. She is paid $400 a cd. Guess how the label has to recoup their losses? CD clubs were demonized by the labels, and most were shut down. Are the legal 99 cent downloads of cd quality? If not, why not? That would seem to be the basis for a lawsuit in itself…selling music of dubious quality, and claiming the buying public is getting a 10 song cd for $10. Not if that music is not cd quality.

  15. First of all, I’ll support all the users stating that the ruling is too harsh – it is totally unfeasible, let alone reasonable. I really do not know how anyone expects Mr. Tenenbaum to come up with this amount of money, unless he sells a kidney (sarcasm intended).
    However, I will point out that Mr. Tenenbaum is ultimately at fault, and allowing this issue to get out of hand is an indication of his own lack of responsibility and lapse of judgment. Downloading music is illegal. Uploading and sharing that same music can get you into even more trouble, because you are essentially distributing something that was obtained illegally in the first place. Mr. Tenenbaum should have known that – everyone does, it’s all over the news. By uploading the music, he was basically begging for a lawsuit. It is worth noting that most people who upload music are based in places where cyber-laws are virtually non-existent, and internet control is a scarce. So why do it in America?

    In the end, however, the $625,000 that Mr. Tenenbaum has to pay salvage his public image. The amount is insane given that he only shared 30 songs. I’m sure the RIAA know that he cannot pay it; yet they had the audacity to applaud the ruling. Lets wait and see where the appeal goes…

  16. First of all, I’ll support all the users stating that the ruling is too harsh – it is totally unfeasible, let alone reasonable. I really do not know how anyone expects Mr. Tenenbaum to come up with this amount of money, unless he sells a kidney (sarcasm intended).
    However, I will point out that Mr. Tenenbaum is ultimately at fault, and allowing this issue to get out of hand is an indication of his own lack of responsibility and lapse of judgment. Downloading music is illegal. Uploading and sharing that same music can get you into even more trouble, because you are essentially distributing something that was obtained illegally in the first place. Mr. Tenenbaum should have known that – everyone does, it’s all over the news. By uploading the music, he was basically begging for a lawsuit. It is worth noting that most people who upload music are based in places where cyber-laws are virtually non-existent, and internet control is a scarce. So why do it in America?

    In the end, however, the $625,000 that Mr. Tenenbaum has to pay salvage his public image. The amount is insane given that he only shared 30 songs. I’m sure the RIAA know that he cannot pay it; yet they had the audacity to applaud the ruling. Lets wait and see where the appeal goes…

  17. Whoever is saying that this is crazy and stupid is absolutley wrong. While in this particular case these may be very large corporations that are suing Tenenbaum, they own the rights to the songs and have the right, under the constitution, to have their songs protected from illegal downloading. If this had been an independent artist, the revenue from these songs would have been very important to that artist and people would not be making these comments at all. The constitution does not make these distinctions and therefore, they have every right to sue Tenenbaum to protect their constitutional right. It is completely irrelevant that thousands of people download songs illegaly because, had they the interest, the record companies would have the right to sue every single one of them. Also, Nesson’s attempt to utilize the fair use doctrine is ridiculous as an entire song is not a snipet of an album but its own copyrighted material. In addition, for fair use to be instated, there must be public interest for this utilization of the copyrighted material, which Tenenbaum’s private use of illegally downloaded music obvioulsly did not have.

  18. Whether he is right or not, the sum he is expected to pay is completely unreasonable. A song costs .99 cents to download. If the fact that he has to pay about $23,000 per song, well he might as well just buy the copyrights for it. Did the kid who created Napster have to even pay that much? And if he did wouldnt that have been more deserved? A total of 4 years at the oh so wonderful BU costs about $200,000. Now triple that and that’s how much this kid owes. BU sucks. RIAA sucks. The end.

  19. As only a few people mentioned here, He didn’t just steal songs, he distributed them, even after being notified. What he did is worse than shoplifting because he shared his shoplifting with others. If you ever bothered to buy a cd in a store (which I do) and looked at the credits, you would see the long list of people whose livelihood depends on the sales. Music doesn’t magically appear out of thin air. Buildings are rented and filled with state of the art equipment that most musicians can’t afford on their own and then manned by people with the expertise to use the state of the art equipment……Making music is an industry just like making a car and the fact that the results can be transmitted over the internet doesn’t make it any less wrong to take it without paying. A car might be more expensive than a song, but the principle is the same, and somebody isn’t getting paid somewhere every time a song is stolen. Radio stations pay every time they play a song, why should Tennenbaum be allowed to steal songs and broadcast them for free? Although my first thought was that he was being charged excessively, if we multiplied the thirty songs by how many people he shared them with, we would get a better picture of the damage he has done.

  20. I agree. Thief is indeed thief, the problem is not that. The problem is the punishment is not commensurate to the crime he committed. Sure slap him with hundred thousand dollar fine to teach him a lesson but +600K? That is just vindictive.

  21. I don’t think anyone’s disputing the fact that what Joel did was wrong, against the law. He knew what he was doing was illegal and he continued to do it so yes, he is a thief and should be punished.

    His punishment should fit the crime but it does not in any way, shape or form do that and I agree with everyone who says it’s a ridiculous amount for not just a college student, but for anyone to have to pay.

    I’m from the UK and it seems from this side of the pond that punitive damages awarded in the U.S. are frequently just so out of proportion to the ‘crime’ as it were. Surely, a reasonable amount (like say, $2,000) would have got the message across to this young man who would likely have worked extra hours somewhere and paid it off.

    Now the RIAA gets nothing as he will undoubtedly file for bankruptcy as no-one in their right mind id going to get saddled with such a ridiculous amount of debt for just 30 songs. It’s ludicrous.

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